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This from Rich Rudman Manzanita Micro:
+
== This from Rich Rudman Manzanita Micro ==
"
+
Rich said:
I have two systems installed. We have 10 +miles range EV only I am not sure what the test variables are for Phev running.
+
: "I have two systems installed. We have 10 +miles range EV only I am not sure what the test variables are for Phev running.
  
The same charger that does the dc/Dc does the Grid recharge. We can sustain 30 plus amps of grid power at 240VAC That's 7.2Kw. We have data logs on a recahrge at less than 25 minutes. So we are in the .3 hours recharge range.
+
: The same charger that does the dc/Dc does the Grid recharge. We can sustain 30 plus amps of grid power at 240VAC That's 7.2Kw. We have data logs on a recahrge at less than 25 minutes. So we are in the .3 hours recharge range.
  
The BMS is a Rudman Reg Mark 3 on every battery. It is fully protected on charge mode and discharge mode. Got the test done yesterday. Sweet operation. Oh yea the BMS is programmable with a laptop. With no security locks. I am doing this open source. We can and have extracted 4+ Kwhr from the add on pack.
+
: The BMS is a Rudman Reg Mark 3 on every battery. It is fully protected on charge mode and discharge mode. Got the test done yesterday. Sweet operation. Oh yea the BMS is programmable with a laptop. With no security locks. I am doing this open source. We can and have extracted 4+ Kwhr from the add on pack.
  
The delivery cost is targeted at $10,000. I have my doubts that I can make the profit I want at this price. The brutal fact is anybody bragging about selling one of these kits for less than 10K is not looking at the bare bones costs of the hardware. I have to. since I am using my own funds, not some investors.
+
: The delivery cost is targeted at $10,000. I have my doubts that I can make the profit I want at this price. The brutal fact is anybody bragging about selling one of these kits for less than 10K is not looking at the bare bones costs of the hardware. I have to. since I am using my own funds, not some investors.
  
Rich Rudman Manzanita Micro"
+
: Rich Rudman Manzanita Micro"
 
--[[User:DavideAndrea|DavideAndrea]] 14:17, 11 July 2006 (CDT)
 
--[[User:DavideAndrea|DavideAndrea]] 14:17, 11 July 2006 (CDT)
  
Line 17: Line 17:
 
[[User:DavideAndrea|DavideAndrea]] 21:00, 10 January 2007 (CST)
 
[[User:DavideAndrea|DavideAndrea]] 21:00, 10 January 2007 (CST)
  
== ReSpill proof Lead-Acid? ==
+
:No, it won't spill like a flooded cell would. The electrolyte is suspended in fiberglass mat separators (a.k.a. absorbent glass mat - AGM.)  In theory, even if the battery is punctured, within the rated temperatures, it will not spill since the electrolyte is in the mat, although a solid acid powder will probably come out in small quantities, but not in a liquid.  If the battery is heated beyond its rated temperature (overcharge, short, etc), the electrolyte becomes liquid and can (and usually does) leak.  A big concern with a punctured battery are the lead plates and the lead powder that gets formed and comes out when punctured, which is a health concern (acid is too, but easier to deal with and clean up.) [[User:Cewert|Cewert]] 20:21, 10 January 2007
  
No, it won't spill like a flooded cell would.  The electrolyte is suspended in fiberglass mat separators (a.k.a. absorbent glass mat - AGM.)  In theory, even if the battery is punctured, within the rated temperatures, it will not spill since the electrolyte is in the mat, although a solid acid powder will probably come out in small quantities, but not in a liquid.  If the battery is heated beyond its rated temperature (overcharge, short, etc), the electrolyte becomes liquid and can (and usually does) leak.  A big concern with a punctured battery are the lead plates and the lead powder that gets formed and comes out when punctured, which is a health concern (acid is too, but easier to deal with and clean up.)
+
::Thanks![[User:DavideAndrea|DavideAndrea]] 00:23, 11 January 2007 (CST)
 
 
 
 
== Re: Spill proof Lead-Acid? ==
 
Thanks![[User:DavideAndrea|DavideAndrea]] 00:23, 11 January 2007 (CST)
 
  
 
== Rotating 90deg for Sortable Table. ==
 
== Rotating 90deg for Sortable Table. ==
 
+
The table has been moved out of the talk page and into the production environment.
<div style="display:none;">
 
This div does not appear withing the page but is used to define the references used below.
 
If multiple ref tags were to appear within the table only the text from the first would be displayed.
 
Thus we pre-define them here, the only side effect being that the first "a" backlink does nothing.
 
 
 
<ref name=ev_range>
 
'''EV range [mi]''' or '''All Electric Range (AER)''' Assuming <35 mph, 210 Wh/mile (260 Wh/mi from grid) per http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/08/solarpoweraugme.html, 1.5 miles is approximately the range with a fully charged stock battery pack</ref>
 
 
 
<ref name=phev_range>
 
'''PHEV range [mi]''' or ''' [[Blended mode]] Range (BMR)''' During which the mileage is on the order of 100 mpg. Shows range as stated by organization.</ref>
 
 
 
<ref name=safety>
 
'''Safety''' Safety in case of major accident
 
# Many Lithium cells will burst in flames if penetrated. However, phosphate cathode LiIon cells (such as [http://www.valence.com/ Valence] and [http://www.a123systems.com/html/company.html A123]) are flame-proof.
 
# SLA batteries contain lead and sulphuric acid but are spill-proof</ref>
 
 
 
<ref name=charge_time>
 
'''Charge time [hours]''' From discharged to the point the pack will no longer be used in PHEV, to fully charged.
 
:''(per Orbital, SLA require 8 hr taper -- done at least once every 3 days -- after near full charge, to reach 100% and prevent sulfation)''</ref>
 
 
 
<ref name=energy>
 
'''Available energy [KWh]''' Because the [[DOD]] of the stock pack is limited by the Prius, only about 0.3 KWh of its energy is available (used). It is assumed that additional batteries are limited to a DOD range of:
 
# SLA: 0% down to 50%,
 
# Litium 0% down to 90%</ref>
 
 
 
<ref name=hymotion_range>
 
'''Hymotion Range''' [[Hymotion]] states 50 km (30 miles) pure EV range. Yet 4.3 KWh calculates out to 15 miles.</ref>
 
 
 
<ref name=spare_tire>
 
'''Spare Tire access''' No = original tire well is covered or occupied by the new battery pack.  The spare must be secured and stowed in the rear cargo space.</ref>
 
 
 
<ref name=pfc_regs>
 
'''PiPrius''' notes:
 
# The [[PiPrius]] PFC40h charger doubles at the DC-DC converter between the OEM and added battery packs.
 
# BMS consists of a Rudman Reg Mark 3 on every battery, which fully protected each battery on charge mode and discharge mode.
 
# The BMS is programmable with a laptop, with no security locks (open source).</ref>
 
 
 
<ref name=convert_service>
 
'''Conversion service:''' done by the PHEV conversion company, at their location.
 
'''Conversion kit:''' done by the owners in their hometown.</ref>
 
 
 
<ref name=status>
 
'''Project Status'''
 
*''Doc: '' Open Source Documentation in progress.
 
*''Dev: '' Development: Working vehicles on the road but some features still under development.
 
*''Prod:'' Production: Working vehicles on the road, performing conversions or supplying kits.</ref>
 
 
 
<ref name=install_time>
 
'''Install time [hours]''' Times are estimates and best guess only.  Assumes 8 hour shift per individual.  Times of less than 24 hours might be performed in a single day by a crew of 3 or less.</ref>
 
 
 
</div>
 
{| class="collapsible" style="background:#F8EABA;text-align:center;width:100%;"
 
! Comparison table: [[PHEV]] conversion and kit options for the [[Toyota Prius]]
 
|-
 
|
 
<!-- {|class="wikitable sortable" -->
 
<!-- !name!!number -->
 
{| class="wikitable sortable" style="background:white;text-align:center;width:100%;"
 
|- valign=bottom
 
! <!-- WebSite  --> '''Organization''' ''external websites'' '''Location'''<br>
 
! <!-- Locl Ref --> '''References'''<br>''local articles'' '''Product'''<br>
 
! <!-- Convert  --> '''Conv. service<br><ref name=convert_service/>'''<br>
 
! <!-- Kits    --> '''Conv. kit<br><ref name=convert_service/>'''<br>
 
! <!-- Status  --> '''Status<br><ref name=status/>'''<br>
 
! <!-- Num Cars --> '''# done so far'''<br>
 
! <!-- AERange  --> '''EV range [mi]<br><ref name=ev_range/>'''<br>
 
! <!-- BMRange  --> '''PHEV range [mi]<br><ref name=phev_range/>'''<br>
 
! <!-- AC Input --> '''AC power'''<br>
 
! <!-- Chg time --> '''Charge time [hours]<br><ref name=charge_time/>'''<br>
 
! <!-- Safety  --> '''Safety<br><ref name=safety/>'''<br>
 
! <!-- Mass Add --> '''Added weight [kg]'''<br>
 
! <!-- Spare    --> '''Spare Tire<br><ref name=spare_tire/>'''<br>
 
! <!-- Cost    --> '''Cost [US$]'''<br>
 
! <!-- Topology --> '''Topology'''<br>
 
! <!-- Energy  --> '''Pack energy [KWh]'''<br>
 
! <!-- Bat DOD  --> '''DOD energy [KWh]<br><ref name=energy/>'''<br>
 
! <!-- Bat Chem --> '''Bat type'''<br>
 
! <!-- Ins Time --> '''Install time [hours]<br><ref name=install_time/>'''<br>
 
|-
 
| <!-- WebSite  --> [http://www.calcars.org/ CalCars] [http://www.electroenergyinc.com/ Electroenergy] California, Connecticut
 
| <!-- Locl Ref --> '''[[PriusPlus]]''' / [[PriusPlus History|History]], [[Inaugural Maker Faire|Maker Faire]], [http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news/message/343 EEEI Prius]
 
| <!-- Convert  --> No
 
| <!-- Kits    --> Yes
 
| <!-- Status  --> Dev Doc
 
| <!-- Num Cars --> 5<ref>[[CalCars]] completed the 1st ever Prius PHEV conversion 11/04, With four by 11/06 (one of which uses NiMH, and one which became the test bed for the PiPrius project)</ref>
 
| <!-- AERange  --> 10-12
 
| <!-- BMRange  --> 20+
 
| <!-- AC Input --> 120-240 VAC
 
| <!-- Chg time --> 3 to 80%<br>11 to 100% <ref name=charge_time/>
 
| <!-- Safety  --> Flame Spill proof
 
| <!-- Mass Add --> 130+
 
| <!-- Spare    --> no
 
| <!-- Cost    --> Batts: ~1K<br>Chgr: 0.9-2K<br>Sum: 4-7K+labor
 
| <!-- Topology --> Stock pack<br>+ new pack<br>w/contactor,<br>stock BMS,<br>CAN-View
 
| <!-- Energy  --> 4.8
 
| <!-- Bat DOD  --> 2.4-3.8<br>+ 0.3 stock
 
| <!-- Bat Chem --> PbA (Ni, Li) <ref>[[CalCars]] uses 20 * BB Battery EVP20-12B SLA (Sealed Lead-Acid).  Have used NiMH and may use Lithium in the future.</ref>
 
| <!-- Ins Time --> 120-36 <ref>[[CalCars]] conversions are very hands on and from scratch, A crew of 5, 8 hours, 3 days = 120 hours.</ref>
 
|-
 
| <!-- WebSite  --> [http://www.manzanitamicro.com/ Manzanita Micro] [http://www.piprius.com PiPrius] [http://plugincenter.com/ AVI] Washington
 
| <!-- Locl Ref --> '''[[PiPrius]]''', [[PriusBlue]], [[WhiteBird]], [[GrayPearl]]
 
| <!-- Convert  --> No
 
| <!-- Kits    --> Yes
 
| <!-- Status  --> Dev Doc
 
| <!-- Num Cars --> 4
 
| <!-- AERange  --> 10
 
| <!-- BMRange  --> 20-30
 
| <!-- AC Input --> Universal:<br>90 to 300 Vac/Vdc
 
| <!-- Chg time --> 3.0 @ 120 Vac/<br>0.3 @ 240 Vac <ref name=charge_time/>
 
| <!-- Safety  --> Flame Spill proof
 
| <!-- Mass Add --> ~150
 
| <!-- Spare    --> no
 
| <!-- Cost    --> Batts: 0.8K~1.2K+<br>Charger/DC-DC: ~1.8K<br>Target: ~ 10K
 
| <!-- Topology --> Stock pack<br>+ new pack<br>w/DC-DC,<br>stock BMS,<br>CAN-View <ref name=pfc_regs/>
 
| <!-- Energy  --> 4.7
 
| <!-- Bat DOD  --> 4<br>+ 0.3 stock
 
| <!-- Bat Chem --> PbA (Ni, Li) <ref>[[PiPrius]] uses 15 * Hawker EP26 SLA (Sealed Lead-Acid). 24 * 20Ah SLA.  Evaluating various Lithium cells.  Users choice of battery pack chemistry, voltage and capacity.</ref>
 
| <!-- Ins Time --> 24-8 <ref>[[PiPrius]] an installer familiars with the kit might complete a conversion in 8 hours, less experienced may spend 3 or more days.</ref>
 
|-
 
| <!-- WebSite  --> [http://energycs.com/ EnergyCS] / [http://w10.eleven2.com/~plugin/ Amberjac] California / UK
 
| <!-- Locl Ref --> '''[[EnergyCS]]''':US /[[Amberjac]]:UK
 
| <!-- Convert  --> Yes
 
| <!-- Kits    --> No
 
| <!-- Status  --> Prod
 
| <!-- Num Cars --> 7
 
| <!-- AERange  --> 30
 
| <!-- BMRange  --> 50
 
| <!-- AC Input --> 120Vac
 
| <!-- Chg time --> 9.0
 
| <!-- Safety  --> Flame Spill proof
 
| <!-- Mass Add --> 83
 
| <!-- Spare    --> no
 
| <!-- Cost    --> 40K now
 
| <!-- Topology --> new pack only,<br>new BMS
 
| <!-- Energy  --> 9.0
 
| <!-- Bat DOD  --> 8
 
| <!-- Bat Chem --> Li<ref>[[EnergyCS]] uses [http://www.valence.com/ Valence] [http://www.valence.com/saphion.asp Saphion] phosphate cathode LiIon cells extracted from [http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp U-Charge] packs</ref>
 
| <!-- Ins Time --> 24-8 <ref>[[EnergyCS]] future:< 1day</ref>
 
|-
 
| <!-- WebSite  --> [http://edrivesystems.com/ EDrive Systems] California
 
| <!-- Locl Ref --> '''[[EDrive]]'''
 
| <!-- Convert  --> ?
 
| <!-- Kits    --> ?
 
| <!-- Status  --> Dev
 
| <!-- Num Cars --> 0
 
| <!-- AERange  --> 32?
 
| <!-- BMRange  --> 60?
 
| <!-- AC Input --> 120-240 VAC
 
| <!-- Chg time --> 9.0
 
| <!-- Safety  --> via cell sep <ref>[[EDrive]] Through cell separation</ref>
 
| <!-- Mass Add --> ?
 
| <!-- Spare    --> yes
 
| <!-- Cost    --> ?
 
| <!-- Topology --> new pack only,<br>new BMS
 
| <!-- Energy  --> 9.5
 
| <!-- Bat DOD  --> 8.5?
 
| <!-- Bat Chem --> Li<ref>[[EDrive]] uses Laptop Cobalt LiIon 18650 cells</ref>
 
| <!-- Ins Time --> ???
 
|-
 
| <!-- WebSite  --> [http://hymotion.com/ Hymotion] / [http://www.a123systems.com/html/company.html A123] Ontario
 
| <!-- Locl Ref --> '''[[Hymotion]]''' / PHEV-L5
 
| <!-- Convert  --> Yes, fleets
 
| <!-- Kits    --> No
 
| <!-- Status  --> Prod
 
| <!-- Num Cars --> 18
 
| <!-- AERange  --> 15 <ref name=hymotion_range/>
 
| <!-- BMRange  -->
 
| <!-- AC Input --> 120 / 220 Vac
 
| <!-- Chg time --> 5.5 / 4.0
 
| <!-- Safety  --> Spill proof
 
| <!-- Mass Add --> 72
 
| <!-- Spare    --> no
 
| <!-- Cost    --> 10K in 100s
 
| <!-- Topology --> Stock pack<br>+ new pack,<br>stock BMS
 
| <!-- Energy  --> 5.0
 
| <!-- Bat DOD  --> 4<br>+ 0.3 stock
 
| <!-- Bat Chem --> Li<ref>[[Hymotion]] uses Lithium polymer (future: A123 LiIon)</ref>
 
| <!-- Ins Time --> 16-8 <ref>[[Hymotion]] < 1 day</ref>
 
|-
 
| <!-- WebSite  --> [http://hybrids-plus.com/ Hybrids-Plus] Colorado
 
| <!-- Locl Ref --> '''[[Hybrids-Plus]]''' [http://hybrids-plus.com/ht/Prius04-PHEV-15-pnr.html Prius-15] / [http://hybrids-plus.com/ht/Prius04-PHEV-30-pnr.html Prius-30]
 
| <!-- Convert  --> Yes
 
| <!-- Kits    --> Future
 
| <!-- Status  --> Prod
 
| <!-- Num Cars --> 3
 
| <!-- AERange  --> 15 / 30
 
| <!-- BMRange  --> 25 / 50
 
| <!-- AC Input --> 120 Vac
 
| <!-- Chg time --> 5.5 / 9.0
 
| <!-- Safety  --> Flame Spill proof
 
| <!-- Mass Add --> 21 / 81
 
| <!-- Spare    --> yes
 
| <!-- Cost    --> 24K / 32K now
 
| <!-- Topology --> new pack only<br>new BMS
 
| <!-- Energy  --> 4.5 / 9.0
 
| <!-- Bat DOD  --> 4 / 8
 
| <!-- Bat Chem --> Li<ref>[[Hybrids-Plus]] uses 600 or 1200 * 26650-size iron-phosphate cathode LiIon cells. Has also used Large format Lithium cells.</ref>
 
| <!-- Ins Time --> 4-24 <ref>[[Hybrids-Plus]] 4 hours is pretty quick, more time required for larger battery.</ref>
 
|-
 
|}
 
|- style="text-align:left;"
 
|
 
<div style="clear:right; float:right;">[{{SERVER}}{{localurl:Template:Prius PHEV Options|action=edit}} edit]</div>
 
Notes:
 
<references/>
 
|}
 

Latest revision as of 23:16, 21 December 2012

This from Rich Rudman Manzanita Micro

Rich said:

"I have two systems installed. We have 10 +miles range EV only I am not sure what the test variables are for Phev running.
The same charger that does the dc/Dc does the Grid recharge. We can sustain 30 plus amps of grid power at 240VAC That's 7.2Kw. We have data logs on a recahrge at less than 25 minutes. So we are in the .3 hours recharge range.
The BMS is a Rudman Reg Mark 3 on every battery. It is fully protected on charge mode and discharge mode. Got the test done yesterday. Sweet operation. Oh yea the BMS is programmable with a laptop. With no security locks. I am doing this open source. We can and have extracted 4+ Kwhr from the add on pack.
The delivery cost is targeted at $10,000. I have my doubts that I can make the profit I want at this price. The brutal fact is anybody bragging about selling one of these kits for less than 10K is not looking at the bare bones costs of the hardware. I have to. since I am using my own funds, not some investors.
Rich Rudman Manzanita Micro"

--DavideAndrea 14:17, 11 July 2006 (CDT)

Spill proof Lead-Acid?

Why are the Lead Acid battery spill proof? Yes, I know, they are sealed. But, in case of perforation, in an accident, won't the acid come out? DavideAndrea 21:00, 10 January 2007 (CST)

No, it won't spill like a flooded cell would. The electrolyte is suspended in fiberglass mat separators (a.k.a. absorbent glass mat - AGM.) In theory, even if the battery is punctured, within the rated temperatures, it will not spill since the electrolyte is in the mat, although a solid acid powder will probably come out in small quantities, but not in a liquid. If the battery is heated beyond its rated temperature (overcharge, short, etc), the electrolyte becomes liquid and can (and usually does) leak. A big concern with a punctured battery are the lead plates and the lead powder that gets formed and comes out when punctured, which is a health concern (acid is too, but easier to deal with and clean up.) Cewert 20:21, 10 January 2007
Thanks!DavideAndrea 00:23, 11 January 2007 (CST)

Rotating 90deg for Sortable Table.

The table has been moved out of the talk page and into the production environment.